Tuesday, September 26, 2006

Who was Manuel II Paleologos and why so violent reactions?

Historical background concerning Manuel II Palaeologus

In his conference in Regensburg University, Pope Benedict XVI quoted a statement of a Dialogue of Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus with a Muslim, and this statement is in the focus of a polemics. The Pope said that he did not adopt the statement he quoted, therefore everybody agrees now in rejecting that the Pope who has responsibility for this this "medieval text of a by-gone age." Now, it is Manuel II who appears as the "naughty boy" of the story.

I am puzzled that in a controversy which concerns a Byzantine Emperor, nobody asked the advice of byzantinists. I happen to know about Manuel II and to have studied this text. For that reason, I believe it is my duty to bring some details to the attention of the public, because in the media, everyone has said just about anything about this text and about Manuel II. For example, somebody said, on the France Culture, channel that he used to burst the eyes of his prisoners. In fact, seven centuries separate Manuel II and Basil II, the emperor who, indeed, burst the eyes of his prisoners.

Context of the quotation
The controversial statement ("Show me that Mohammed brought anything new: you will find nothing, but bad and inhuman, for instance what he states by ordering his faith to be imposed by sword") is taken from the 7th chapter of a book which is composed of 26 chapters.

This 7th book was edited in 1966 by Th. Khoury in Sources Chretiennes 115, and, it seems, it is from this edition that Pope took this statement, since he quotes Th. Khoury. The entire Greek text was edited by E. Trapp in 1966 in the Wiener Byzantinische Studien. A revised edition is being done by K. Forstel in the le Corpus islamo-christianum, series graeca. A German translation of chapters 1, 2, 5, 6 and 7 has been published by R. Senoner in 2003 in Wien.

Context of the discussion

According to a treaty between his father John V Paleologus and the Sultan Bayezid, who had helped him against his rebel grandson, Manuel II has to serve as a vassal in the army of Bayezid. During a campaign in Asia Minor against the Mongols (1391), he held a discussion, as sharp as peaceful, with an ulema of Ankara, with whom he is staying. Some years after, while Bayezid was besieging Constantinople, Manuel wrote this discussion. The title was : "Dialogue of Emperor Manuel with a Persian" ("Persian", in the Byzantine language of this time, meant Turk, to remind people of the ancient conflict between Greeks and Persians).

Contrary to many treatises of anti-Muslim polemics, which we find in Western Christendom as well as in the Byzantine Empire, this text is the written record of a discussion that really took place. Manuel presents his Muslim partner in a positive way, as an host respectful and curious to know the religion of his host. The discussion is as cordial as frank, since neither of the two hesitates to expose what he doesn't like in the religion of the other. The relations between both men are not altered by it. This text is one of the first interreligious dialogues, where each people displays his own truth and looks for dialogue without disavowing anything of what he believes.

The editor, Th. Khoury, writes in his introduction: "The immoderate expressions, relatively rare, which we can read in the text come mostly from the liberties that Manuel took when finally writing his text". The fact that Bayezid was besieging Constantinople when Manuel was writing can explain the hardening of his language.

Violence and Faith

Returning to the quotation, and the issue of violence and faith. Benedict XVI quotes a statement of the 7th Controversy, which concerns Jihad. It is a classical theme of the polemics between Byzantines and muslims. We find it from the first centuries of the arab conquest.

This theme gained importance after the Crusades. At the time of Manuel, when Byzantines objected to the idea of a holy war, they have as a line of sight, in the same time, Muslim Jihad and western crusade. It is an aspect of Byantine mentality that we should never forget, especially at the end of the Empire. By opposing Islam on that point, a Byzantine has always in his mind the trauma of 4th Crusade and all theexpeditions when they saw Christian soldiers with a cross on their dresses and handling a sword on the name of Christ.

We see that this statement, when put into its context, gains a meaning different from the one the media give it.

Byzantiniste Marie Helene Congourdeau

*))))MideastWeb Middle East Web Log(((*
Byzantine 2006 - Putting Quotes Back In Context

Daily Show on the Popes Comments and Muslim Response


Ecumene said...

Pope quoting history

by Thanos Kalamidas

Let me see, I read the newspapers every day, I listen to the radio news and I watch the news on television. Most of the time somebody for Iran or Iraq declares war on Christianity and promises he will see my head cut. I see young kids in the name of Qur’an holding automatic guns and shooting in the air promising death to infidels, while their black-dressed holy mentors bless them from the back.

[Pope Benedict XVI quoted 14th century text.] I see raving preachers preaching the destruction of the west and the establishment of Islam, while every time I have to fly I make nervous jokes about the Twin Towers and nobody has the courage, first of all, to apologize to me and, secondly, to tell all these people to just shut up!

And then Byzantine Emperor Paleologos said and the very same preachers demand an apology? Hold on to your camels!!! What’s going on here?

Read more and comment

Ecumene said...

Pope Benedict's speech was an event that was almost ignored in Hellas compared to the coverage in the West.
The "usual" opinion makers of mass media were mute.
His lecture was not just a criticism of establishing religions using violence and Jihad (holy war) but it was a criticism of a West that discourages the expression of Faith as not politically correct.
Points of discussion:

a) How an atheistic West can open a meaningfull dialogue for peace with a deeply religious Islam?

b) The majority of the Western Press defended the right of the Pope to express his thoughts and more than that condemned the violent protests of the islamist extremists in response to the Pope's speech.

c) The Pope didn't attack Islam as a religion but the extreme actions and violence of the fundamentalists and terrorists that attack in the name of Islam (i.e 9/11).

d) PopeBenedict critisizes the removal of the Hellenic thought from Christianity. The convergence of Faith and Philosophy is the definite criteria to identify Christianity in Europe. We neeed this synthesis between the Greek spirit and the Christian spirit

The pope said:
"I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God...God acts with logos. Logos means both reason and word-- a reason which is creative and capable of self-communication, precisely as reason"

Ο Πάπας, το Ισλάμ και η Ελληνική...αφασία!

American Crusader said...

I used the same picture of angry Muslim reaction. Where are the moderate Muslims condemnations of this reaction?
Why are Muslims even angry...the Koran commands that they spread Islam by any means...including violence.

The Koran contains five commands to kill and 12 commands to fight (literally, "try to kill"). Most are found in the second (verses 190, 191, 193, 244), fourth (vv. 76, 84, 89, 91) and ninth (vv. 5, 12, 14, 29, 36, 123) suras.

The commands address a number of different situations, from "fighting those who fight you" to "fighting totally." The objects of the fighting and killing include the unbelievers, the "associators" (mushrikin, or polytheists) and "the friends of Satan."

In classical Muslim discussions of these verses, two verses attracted more attention than any others. They came to be known as "the sword verse" (9.5) and "the verse of tribute" (9.29).

The verse of tribute concerns the "people of the book" -- generally understood by Muslims to be faith communities possessing a scripture, especially Jews and Christians. The command is to fight those who have been given the book "until they pay the tribute (jizya) out of hand and have been humbled." The command in the sword verse is to "kill the associators (mushrikin) wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush." At face value, therefore, polytheists appear to be at greater risk than Jews or Christians.

FreeCyprus said...

"The worshipper of the cross, you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion to Islam or to be killed by the sword."

-- Al Qaeda statement on Al Jazeera TV shortly after The Pope's comment.

You cannot "reason" with this kind of mentality by talking about love, peace and forgiveness. Unfortunately, the only thing they understand is violence.

Ecumene said...

@American Crusader

Welcome although the name "Crusader" could irritate the spirits...

I count up more deeds than words
and quotes....

((kill the associators (mushrikin) wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush.))

I have discussed it with a muslim
and he told me that we must view it
with its context,too.
I quote it and anyone can judge it....

(They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.) (An-Nisaa’ 4: 89-91)

Does the Qur’an Teach Violence?

I hope you scholars will help me get rid of these confusions I have been having since the Sept 11 incident, especially as regards some Qur’anic verses. These verses totally contradict what Muslims say that their religion calls for peace and denounces violence. Mind you, though not a Muslim, but I don’t hate Muslims. I just need shedding light on some issues. How would you interpret a verse like this (And slay them wherever ye catch them…)? (Al-Baqarah 2: 191) and (…But if they turn away, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks) (An-Nisaa' 4: 89) I will really appreciate your quick reply.



S T O P ..... I T !!!!!!!!!!!!"

ΠΗΓΑΣΟΣ said...

Διαβάζοντας την ομιλία του Πάπα, τι είπε στην ουσία;

Έβαλε το θέμα το θέμα των σχέσεων Δύσης - Ισλάμ, στη πραγματική τους διάσταση, υπογράμμισε τη διαφορά της κουλτούρας των δύο κόσμων και κάλεσε τους εκπροσώπους των για διάλογο.Γιατί πιστεύω ότι άλλο ο πιστός του Ισλάμ και άλλο ο φονταμελιστής του Ισλάμ.

Ecumene said...


Maybe it 's an


Ecumene said...


Kαι για τον φιλοσοφικό
αφελληνισμό της θεολογικής
σκεψης μίλησε.
Δες και το link στο δευτερο
Το ζητημα ειναι πόσοι
ειναι οι μετριοπαθεις
και ποσοι οι φανατικοί...


Ecumene said...

They accuse Pope Benedict
that has always been against

August 20, 2005

In this regard, it is always right to recall what the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council said about relations with Muslims. “The Church looks upon Muslims with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humanity and to whose decrees, even the hidden ones, they seek to submit themselves whole-heartedly, just as Abraham, to whom the Islamic faith readily relates itself, submitted to God . . . Although considerable dissensions and enmities between Christians and Muslims may have arisen in the course of the centuries, the Council urges all parties that, forgetting past things, they train themselves towards sincere mutual understanding and together maintain and promote social justice and moral values as well as peace and freedom for all people” (Declaration Nostra Aetate, No. 3).

You, my esteemed friends, represent some Muslim communities from this country where I was born, where I studied and where I lived for a good part of my life. That is why I wanted to meet you. You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith. Teaching is the vehicle through which ideas and convictions are transmitted. Words are highly influential in the education of the mind. You, therefore, have a great responsibility for the formation of the younger generation. As Christians and Muslims, we must face together the many challenges of our time. There is no room for apathy and disengagement, and even less for partiality and sectarianism. We must not yield to fear or pessimism. Rather, we must cultivate optimism and hope. Interreligious and intercultural dialogue between Christians and Muslims cannot be reduced to an optional extra. It is in fact a vital necessity, on which in large measure our future depends. Young people from many parts of the world are here in Cologne as living witnesses of solidarity, brotherhood and love. They are the first fruits of a new dawn for humanity. I pray with all my heart, dear Muslim friends, that the merciful and compassionate God may protect you, bless you and enlighten you always. May the God of peace lift up our hearts, nourish our hope and guide our steps on the paths of the world.


Anonymous said...

If muslims continue acting like this
I will start believing Bush is right!

FreeCyprus said...

Some of my Muslim friends ARE condemning the violence perpetrated by other Muslims after the Pope's speach. The problem is...their religious leaders so far have been quiet.

U.S. Central Command: What Extremists are Saying

FreeCyprus said...

ETL, it's an obsession all right.

The sad thing is....it is being taught to a brand new generation. Small children in Jihad videos chanting, almost zombie-like, saying "Death to America" and "Kill The Jews"

It won't end in Afghanistan and Iraq....

FreeCyprus said...

well at least some of them are trying (have to wait for the QuickTime to download):

Free Muslim Coalition video, exposing the Islamic Extremists lies about Islam

Ecumene said...


Here is the Bush's reaction

Bush addressed the issue during his meeting Monday with the prime minister of Malaysia.

"The president noted that the pope had made some apologies for his remarks and the president believed that the pope was sincere in those remarks and that's where the discussion was left


Condoleezza Rice praised the Pontiff's "love of humanity," and said: "We all need to understand that offense can sometimes be taken when perhaps we don't see it."


I found that...

American Muslims Accept Pope’s Apology

United Muslims of America Interfaith Alliance (UMAIA)

It is time to move on. We take Pope Benedict’s apology seriously and we urge American Muslims to take leadership positions to condemn religiously motivated violence and work more deligently for building inter-religious cultures of peace and healing.

We deeply regret the violence and the loss of life that has occured. This is not acceptable.

We also accept our inability to control the actions of 1.3 billion Muslims spread all over the world.

American Muslims Accept Pope's Apology

Ecumene said...

Text of Pope's official apology statement

Dear brothers and Sisters,

The pastoral visit which I recently made to Bavaria was a deep spiritual experience, bringing together personal memories linked to places well known to me and pastoral initiatives towards an effective proclamation of the Gospel for today.

I thank God for the interior joy which he made possible, and I am also grateful to all those who worked hard for the success of this Pastoral Visit.

As is the custom, I will speak more of this during next Wednesday's general audience.

At this time, I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims.

These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought.

Yesterday, the Cardinal Secretary of State published a statement in this regard in which he explained the true meaning of my words.

I hope that this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect.


Ecumene said...

The whole story and the global reactions of Pope Benedict XVI-Islam controversy in Wikipedia

Anh Khoi Do said...

Hi Ergo Te Lina. I don't think that the Pope is openly islamophobic, but the aftermath of his declaration reveals us that there's a strange contradiction in the behaviour of certain Muslims. In fact, some of these people thought that the Pope was trying to conceal an opinion behind a quotation.

What I'm trying to say is that these people feel offended whenever someone talks about the jihad and the violence that is related to Islamic extremism. These same people, who uphold that Islam is a religion of peace, adopt a violent behaviour in order to express their anger. Thus, how can someone, who upholds that Islam is a religion of peace, behave so violently by often showing resentment towards other faith? This is where the contradiction lies, in my opinion.

Finally, this leads me to say that certain Muslims are living in denial. Because of what we see in the Western media, we often have the feeling that moderate Muslims don't condemn this form of violence. I remember that when 17 terrorists were arrested in Toronto during summer, a French-Canadian TV news show aired a few interviews done with moderate Muslims living in Montréal. Even though these interviewees condemned Islamic terrorism, you could tell by the look in their eyes that it was quite a taboo for them to talk about it. Besides, the tone of their voice also showed that they live a little bit in denial.

Unknown said...

The Pope proved to be a good historican but a miserable politician (or maybe not?). It was a matter of bad timing and a not so wisely chosen quotation that arose all the controversy. The Pope should know that he is deemed to speak on behalf of all Christianity. On the other side, Muslims don't have a counterpart, some kind ofa Muslim "Pope". Fierce reactions that saw a great deal of publicity were from people that speak for themselves (and try to attract followers). They do not represent the Mulsim world. Would you ever judge Christianity as a whole based on the reactions of a bunch of fanatics against "DaVinci Code" or the famous book of Mr. Androulakis, M^ν?

Unknown said...

Τελικά, όλοι τα βάζουν με τους εξτρεμιστές Μουσουλμάνους. Με τους εξτρεμιστές Χριστιανούς τι θα γίνει;

Ecumene said...

@Anh Khoi Do

You are right
Moderate Muslims are afraid
of Extremists and keep
the thoughts for themselves



Let's see the opposite....
Many times Muslim leaders
have spoken degradingly
against other religions
in a way that could irritate
the believers of the other side..

Have you watched such reactions?..

And there is not only the mob...
The leaders also made statements
for violence....

There are Christians and Jews extremists and we criticize them
Do you think that could be so easy
to do it,if we were in a muslim

Read this

An offer infidels can't refuse

The pope suggests Islam encourages violence -- and Muslims riot in protest.
Many commentators have pointed out the apparent hypocrisy: Muslims are outraged by cartoons satirizing Islamic extremism while in Muslim countries Christianity and Judaism are attacked viciously and routinely.

Many commentators are missing the point: These protestors _ and those who incite them _ are not asking for mutual respect and equality. They are not saying: "It's wrong to speak ill of a religion." They are saying: "It's wrong to speak ill of our religion." They are not standing up for a principle. They are laying down the law. They are making it as clear as they can that they will not tolerate "infidels" criticizing Muslims. They also are making it clear that infidels should expect criticism _ and much worse _ from Muslims.

They are attempting nothing less than the establishment of a new world order in which the supremacy of what they call the Nation of Islam is acknowledged, and "unbelievers" submit _ or die. Call it an offer you can't refuse.

If you don't understand this, listen harder. In London, Anjem Choudary told Muslim demonstrators that Pope Benedict XVI deserves to be killed for daring to quote a Byzantine emperor's description of Islam as a religion "spread by the sword."

"The Muslims take their religion very seriously," Choudary explained as if to a disobedient child, "and non-Muslims must appreciate that and must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet. Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."


In Iran, the powerful imam Ahmad Khatami said the pope "should fall on his knees in front of a senior Muslim cleric." In no culture of which I am aware is that a posture from which brother addresses brother.

Dr. Imad Hamto, a Palestinian religious leader, said: "We want to use the words of the Prophet Muhammad and tell the pope: 'Aslim Taslam' "

The Israeli Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh explained: "Aslim Taslam is a phrase that was taken from the letters sent by the Prophet Muhammad to the chiefs of tribes in his times in which he reportedly urged them to convert to Islam to spare their lives."

It is not only those readily identified as extremists who voice such views. The prime minister of Malaysia, Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, seemed to strike a conciliatory note, saying that the pope's expression of regret for his remarks was "acceptable." But he added: "(W)e hope there are no more statements that can anger the Muslims."

Similarly, on National Public Radio, a George Washington University professor, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, argued that statements such as those quoted by the pope _ expressing sentiments some Muslims may find offensive _ must be viewed as a form of violence.

Is the Western ideal of freedom of speech and of the press threatened? Of course. But that's only part of what is at work here. More significantly, Americans and Europeans are being relegated to the status of a dhimmi _ the Arabic word applied to those conquered by Muslim armies between the 7th and 17th centuries. Based on shari'a law, dhimmis are meant to "feel themselves subdued," to acknowledge their inferiority compared to Muslims.

In some ways, we already have done so. For example, Muslims are welcome in the Vatican, even as Christians are banned from setting foot in Mecca. We do not object to Saudis building mosques in America and Europe even as they prohibit churches and synagogues on Arabian soil.

We pledge to abide by the Geneva Conventions when waging wars against Muslim combatants. We expect those combatants to follow the same rules. They are engaged in a jihad and they will show no mercy to infidel soldiers or even to infidel journalists. The "international community" does not seriously protest. With our silence, we consent to inequality.

Most of the world's Muslims are neither rioting nor calling for the death of the pontiff. But quite a few may reason that if Christians and Jews haven't the confidence to reject dhimmitude and defend freedom, they would be foolish to stick their necks out.After all, a Muslim who challenges the Islamic extremeists brands himself as an apostate _ as deserving of death as any uppity pope.

trol said...

I also do not think the Pope' s speech just slipped its way through the board that checks his speeches (they said sth about it reforming at the time but nahh) ..it was his clear intention to make a very political comment, I think

Also, by being very westernized myself, I have trouble understanding who would express the collective of Islam. Not the extremists, I believe or I hope. The people, I guess. But they are not western either. I cannot discern the messages in their actions easily or I 'll judge them by my standards up to a point. Reading more, learning more would help. But for a real dialogue between religions I also do not want to limit discussion to my Western ignorance. I really thought that (before the whole thing with the Danish cartoonists broke up) humor could be a great, no matter how small, mean. That failed too.

Before I confuse my thoughts even more...

Happy Ramazan.

Ecumene said...

Happy Ramadan!

Who does express real Islam?

The Mullahs,
the schollars,they have studied Quran

As well as in Protestant church
they don't have an Ultimate Chief

@Regarding Christians extremists

Domestic terrorist attack in Iowa

Earlier this week, antiabortion crackpot David McMenemy attacked a women's health clinic in Iowa by pouring gasoline inside his car and crashing it into the building. It's horrifying to see suicide-bomber-type tactics being used by the antichoice movement; fortunately, no one was hurt. The especially weird part is that the clinic in question, the Edgerton Women's Health Center, doesn't perform abortions or refer patients to abortion providers

Domestic terrorist attack in Iowa

Kαι στα ελληνικά απο Cyrusgeo


trol said...

so the guy was just on crack?
nahh just kidding, plenty of extremists in the us too

i asked many friends in denmark if muslims in their country bother them...though this is far from the general rule, they all said no (i would expect that even some would say yes, but no)..they didn t mind girls wearing scarves, they even thought for some obscure related to tradition reasons that they make better wives (stormfront read this hehe) but they were all absolutely furious at the mullahs being quite two-faced on the matter of the cartoons

when i asked the girls they also did not mind muslims in their country...but they had linked verbal sexual harassment to muslim men and that was what bothered them

as far as only religion is concerned all the danes that I talked to care about it as much as they care for their own religion...not at all..they have to translate to its social consequences to discuss about it and even if they are religious they will keep spirituality a very private thing

discussion -and not distinct opinionw- between religions sometimes reminds me of the joke...-how many surrealists does it take to fix a lamp...-blue

advocatus diaboli said...

Ουάου, καλά, μιλάμε χαρά στο κουράγιο σου να βρεις τόσες πληροφορίες!

Greg said...

Την σύγκρουση των πολιτισμών την επεδίωξε η Δύση και την πέτυχε μέχρις ενός σημείου.

Εγώ σαν συνομωσιολόγος ολκής!!! θα σταθώ στο γιατί ο Πάπας (διεθνής παίκτης...) χρησιμοποίησε Βυζαντινό κείμενο! Πιστεύεις ότι δεν υπήρχαν κείμενα καθολικών διανοητών και αναγκάστηκε να χρησιμοποιήσει τα λόγια του Βυζαντινού αυτοκράτορα;
Εγώ ξέρω πως όχι (μην με βάλεις να ψάχνω quotes γιατί τρέχω τις τελευταίες μέρες - πίστεψε το αυτονόητο!)

Μ' αυτόν τον τρόπο
1. Βάζει στην αντιπαράθεση - θέλουν δεν θέλουν - τους ορθόδοξους.
2. Δημιουργεί σαφείς διαχωριστικές γραμμές Χριστιανισμού και Μουσουλμανισμού και όχι Δύσης - Ανατολής.
3. Βάζει στη σέντρα εκβιαστικά και τον Πατριάρχη (βλέπεις η Ελλαδική και η Ρωσική εκκλησία έχει καλύτερες σχέσεις με το Βατικανό στις μέρες μας)

Ecumene said...


5% of the population of Denmark is Muslim

I read this interesting from wiki..

The majority of the Muslims living in Denmark are first-generation Danes from Muslim-majority countries. During the 1970s, many Muslims emigrated from Turkey, Pakistan, Morocco, or Yugoslavia, while during the following two decades, a significant portion emigrated from the Palestinian territories, Iran, Iraq, and Somalia.

Parts of the Qur'an (and other religious texts like the Bible) are required reading in a religion class in grammar school at the obligatory C level.

In 1967 the Nusrat Djahan Mosque the first Mosque in Scandinavia, was built in Hvidovre, a suburb of Copenhagen. It is used by Ahmadi believers, but is not regarded as Muslim by many shia- and sunni Muslims, who see the movement as heretical.[citation needed]

Other mosques exist but are not built for the explicit purpose. It is not forbidden to build mosques or any other religious buildings in Denmark but there are very strict zoning laws. One piece of land has been reserved for a grand mosque near Copenhagen, but financing is not settled.

It could easily be financed e.g. with Saudi money, but then it would become an Arab mosque, and most Muslims in Denmark are not Arabs but Turks, Kurds, and Bosnians.

There are seven Muslim cemeteries in Denmark. They are all placed in connection with existing Danish graveyards. This seems to be a problem, as many Muslims don’t want to be buried so close to atheists and Christians, and therefore prefer to be flown to their home countries to be buried there. A separate Muslim cemetery is due to open in Brøndby near Copenhagen in 2006.

Following the controversy surrounding the publication of the Muhammad Cartoons in a Danish newspaper, which left over 100 people dead.............
the Muslim organisation "The network" set up a system whereby Non-Muslims could "book a Muslim" and have dinner with a Muslim so as to dispel alleged misconceptions about Muslim life and cultures.

Islam in Denmark

That 's good idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As well as Ahmadinejad told Bush
"Let 's go debate!"
If i were a muslim leader
I would also tell Pope
Let 's make a TV-Debate!!!!!



Ecumene said...

@advocatus diaboli

O,τι πληροφορίες θελεις..

εδω ειμαστε...



Και γιατι να μην το δουμε
ως μια ιστορική
συγγνώμη του Πάπα
για την αρνηση βοήθειας
απο την πλευρά της Δυσης
στον αιτούντα Βυζαντινό

Σου απαντω με ελληνοκεντρικό


Ο Πάπας, το Ισλάμ και η Ελληνική...αφασία!

Του Χρύσανθου Λαζαρίδη............

trol said...

'book a muslim' ...indeed a good idea as funny as it sounds

thnx for the info, i always neglect to drag my ass over to google or even wiki pedia

Anonymous said...

I watched the second video

Colbert Remarks on the Pope's Comments and Muslim Response

I loughed..
Colbert is a great Comedian

but the so-called arabic numbers
are actually Indian...........

Q: Why are our numbers called Arabic? Where did they really come from? (Mary, Downey, California and Kevin, Compton, California)

A: Your implied suspicions are well founded. Hindu mathematicians in India invented the so-called Arabic numbers at least 1,700 years ago. The Arabs played an essential part in passing the number system to us. Their own number system also stems from the Hindu figures.

Our “Arabic” numbers and the original Hindu symbols. I’ve also included the Arab symbol for “2” for comparison. [Adapted from Wikipedia]By about 1500 years ago, the Arabs had a translation into Arabic of a Hindu text describing the nine-number system.

Our "Arabic" numbers and the original Hindu symbols. I’ve also included the Arab symbol for "2" for comparison. [Adapted from Wikipedia]

Arab mathematician Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi helped to get the book into European hands. Around 850, while teaching mathematics in Baghdad, he wrote an arithmetic book that explains the Hindu number system. By chance, merchants carried the manuscript to Europe where scholars translated it into Latin — Algoritmi de numero Indorum, meaning, "On Hindu number calculations."

We’ve lost the original Arabic text and only have a Latin translation.

Reading the Latin version but noticing the book had been translated from Arabic, Europeans jumped to the conclusion that Arabs invented these numbers. But this, of course, wasn’t the case.

Why are our numbers called Arabic? Where did they really come from?

Unknown said...

Ergo te lina dira...
"There are Christians and Jews extremists and we criticize them
Do you think that could be so easy
to do it,if we were in a muslim

It depends on the country. Bosnia or Iran? ;-? They are both muslim countries!

"Who does express real Islam?
The Mullahs,
the schollars,they have studied Quran
As well as in Protestant church
they don't have an Ultimate Chief"

That's exactly the point. The Pope is one of the leaders of Christianity. An imam or a mullah is not a leader of the Muslim world. Why the fierce reactions of certain mullahs in Iran are consider as representing the whole Muslim world? Would you ever accept that the opinions of the Archbishop of Florina for example of the infamous Pat Robertson represent Christianity? I don't think so. So why all the western media focus on the reactions of the fanatic Muslim clergy and try to persuade us (and eventuslly they will) that's how Islam is? Is it likely to concrete the dichotomy Christianity - Islam as an expression of the so-called clash of civilizations?

ioannisk said...

Α ρε ergo ετοίμαζα δοκίμιο για τον Κούλογλου Productions και άλλαξες θέμα.

I do not know the whole story with the pope’s speech. Maybe this text was a tiny part of his speech and someone was offended and made it public, it happens frequently in Greece when a western politician says something and the extremists react. Maybe he did this comment on purpose. But why did he do it?

trol said...

Is it likely to concrete the dichotomy Christianity - Islam as an expression of the so-called clash of civilizations?

i really hope not, though Huntington is smiling in content with how things are going

the most convincing response to making such gross stereotypes is a great book written by M. Todorova on the Balkans, Balkanism, the derogatory use of the word 'balkanization'.

Taken from Wikipedia, she has said in her book:

"The central idea of Imagining the Balkans is that there is a discourse, which I term Balkanism, that creates a stereotype of the Balkans, and politics is significantly and organically interwined with this discourse. When confronted with this idea, people may feel somewhat uneasy, especially on the political scene...The most gratifying response to me came from a very good British journalist, Misha Glenny, who has written well and extensively on the Balkans. He said, 'You know, now that I look back, I have been guilty of Balkanism,' which was a really honest intellectual response"

I was so happy to learn that her book entered the syllabus of many university classes next to Huntington's

ioannisk said...

“We do not object to Saudis building mosques in America and Europe” … “We pledge to abide by the Geneva Conventions” πως το είχε πει ο Φασιστόδουλος; Ότι αυτός και η θρησκεία του είναι πάνω από τα ανθρώπινα δικαιώματα; Κλπ
Κάνω λάθος ή μου φαίνεται πως η Ελλάδα ανήκει στην Μέση Ανατολή;

Η Δ. Ευρώπη δεν είναι άθεη αλλά σε γενικές γραμμές άθρησκη. Υπάρχει ένα χάσμα ανάμεσα στον αθεϊσμό και στην αθρησκεία (spelling?)
Αν κάποιος έβγαλε την αρχαία Ελληνική σκέψη από τον χριστιανισμό είναι ο ίδιος ο χριστιανισμός μιας και είναι αντίθετα (γνώση vs πίστη).

Μακάρι να ήταν αυτός ο σκοπός του.

“Τελικά, όλοι τα βάζουν με τους εξτρεμιστές Μουσουλμάνους. Με τους εξτρεμιστές Χριστιανούς τι θα γίνει”
Έχεις απόλυτο δίκαιο αλλά πριν σώσουμε την ανθρωπότητα ας ξεφορτωθούμε τους δικούς μας. Πάντως δεν κατάλαβα ποιον από τους 2 εννοείς τον tv-Priest Pat ή τον Chavez? Εκτός αν εννοείς και τους δύο. Διαφωνώ στην δολοφονία του Chavez (ή του Pat). Να γίνει μάρτυρας ο Ψωμιάδης της Λατινικής Αμερικής;
The Pope is not the leader of Christians. He is the leader of the most populous Christian “brand”. I do not know if Muslims see it that way.
You can see the clash of civilizations is the speeches of Fasistodoulos the chief of the Greek-Orthodox church.

@ Greg
Ναι έχεις απόλυτο δίκαιο! Ο Σατανάς από το Βατικανό θέλει να βλάψει την ορθοδοξία και τον Ελληνισμό.

The theories about “clash of civilizations” were not invented by Huntington. They have been around for centuries.

trol said...

true, however he claimed the brand and the fame and was taught extensively..and still is

that is why I find him annoying

yes i am ignorant at least compared to ergotelina, but at least i hoped i clarified the point on this

Ecumene said...


Maybe the Bosnian government
as a wannabe european one..
will protect you,if you criticize
Islam but then you would not be
totally safe....

Bosnian Muslim Protesters Burn Danish, Norwegian And Croatian Flags In Sarajevo


For Some Bosnian Muslims in Serbia, Ethno-music is Simply Satanic


A case that put A.I.O.Active Islamic Youth of Bosnia in the spotlight was the 2003 murder by a young Muslim fanatic of three ethnic Croat returnees on Christmas Eve. The killer claimed he was a member of the A.I.O., which the organization denied, conceding that he might have attended some lectures.


Radical Islam Takes Root in the Balkans

Mudjahedins in Bosnia


Ecumene said...


Aλλα απ' ο,τι βλεπω ουτε στην Γερμανία μπορεις να κριτικαρεις το Ισλαμ!......................

Την ειδηση την εχει σημερα και το Βημα

Οι Γερμανοί προσεχουν το κεφαλι...
του Μωαμεθ
Κατεβηκε η διασκευασμενη Οπερα του Μοτσαρτ "Ιδομενεας",υπο τον φοβο Ισλαμιστών....

Στην όπερα Ιδομενεας,ο ομωνυμος βασιλιας της Κρητης,επιστρεφει στην πατριδα του απο την Τροια,αναγκαζεται να θυσιασει το γιό του.Ο Σκηνοθετης Hans Neuenfels
αντιστρεφει τη λογικη του εργου
βαζοντας τον Ιδομενεα να αποκεφαλίσει αντι το γιο του...
τον Ποσειδωνα,τον Ιησου,τον Βουδα και τον Μωαμεθ...

BERLIN (Reuters) - German politicians condemned on Tuesday a decision by a Berlin opera house to cancel performances of Mozart's "Idomeneo" over concerns they could enrage Muslims and pose a security risk.

In the production, directed by Hans Neuenfels, King Idomeneo is shown staggering on stage next to the severed heads of Buddha, Jesus, Poseidon and the Prophet Mohammad, which sit on chairs............

Fears of Islamic radicalization have increased recently, aggravated by a failed bomb attack on two German trains in July. Two Lebanese students have been arrested for the plot and German security officials believe they likely had help from a radical Islamic network.

Greg said...


και σε όσους άλλους "τυφλούς τα τ' ώτα τον τε νούν τε τ' όματα" που βλέπουν θρησκομανία, ελληνοκεντρισμό, ρατσισμό κλπ στα λεγόμενα μου, παγιδευμένοι από εποχιακές ιδεοληψίες:

"Εγώ λέω και γράφω και συ γαϊδούρια κλάνουνε..."

που έλεγε και η γιαγιά μου όταν άκουγα αλλ' αντ' άλλων στα παιδικά μου χρόνια...

Ecumene said...

O Τειρεσίας Ερντογαν μίλησε...

PM Erdogan defends position of Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan yesterday reserved stern words for his own AKP MPs in parliament who questioned the role of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul. Responding to one MP's accusation that "The Patriarchate will turn into a state like the Vatican," Erdogan replied "What do you think, that everyone who buys land in Turkey is going to set up a state? This is not a child's game."

Later, speaking with his AKP group about the controversy surrounding the "ecumenical" status of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul, the PM had this to say:

"When Fatih Sultan Mehmet arrived in Istanbul, he allowed the church to remain ecumenical. Because he had a real trust, as well as self-confidence. We also trust in ourselves, and have real confidence."


Ecumene said...

Greg said

Εγώ σαν συνομωσιολόγος ολκής!!! θα σταθώ στο γιατί ο Πάπας (διεθνής παίκτης...) χρησιμοποίησε Βυζαντινό κείμενο!

γιατί ταίριαζε με την περίσταση...

Ο Παλαιολόγος ήταν αμυνόμενος
και πολιορκούμενος απο το επιτιθέμενο Ισλαμ...

Που να βρισκε αντιστοιχο καθολικο
οταν με το που θα το λεγε
θα του λεγαν για τον Παπα Ουρβανό
και τις Σταυροφορίες....

να λεγε για αντίστοιχο Βιεννέζο διανοούμενο;;...................

Δεν φτανει που μας εκανε και διαφημιση και εμαθε ο κοσμος
το Βυζαντιο.....

Γουελκαμ το Βιζαντιουμ...

Παλι τουριστικα μας ωφελησε...


bidibis said...

Όχι άλλο Ισλάμ mπαϊλντι, please!

Από τότε που ανέβασες εκείνο το ποστ για το κοτόπουλο απο τη σαλλλονίκη δε σταμάτησες να ασχολέισαι με το μουσουλμανικό τόξο και δόρυ. Μήπως είσαι κρυφή. Εσείς εκει κάτω που δεν είστε πάσης ελλάδας με φαίνεται οτι πολύ ανεξιθρησκεία απολαμβάνετε. Δε φοβάστε μην αφελληνιστείτε και γίνεται Μαμελούκοι;

Ευχαριστώ το θεό που μ' εχει κάνει αριανό και όχι μωαμεθανό (Και πάλι)♪♫

American Crusader said...

That was my intent in using "Crusader".

American Crusader said...

vrennus said...
The Pope proved to be a good historican but a miserable politician (or maybe not?). It was a matter of bad timing and a not so wisely chosen quotation that arose all the controversy. The Pope should know that he is deemed to speak on behalf of all Christianity.

Perhaps, but should the Pope be forced to weigh the consequences of speaking freely? Did not the reaction of those offended give proof to the statement?
Whatever happened to the Byzantine Empire anyways?
After the Turks took the city of Constantinople they massacred the residents with their SWORDS.
Of course this is an oversimplification but in the capital city of the Eastern Roman Empire that lasted 800 years after the fall of Rome there is barely a church left standing.

American Crusader said...

Not to beat a dead horse but here are the few statistics:
In the former heart of the Byzantine Empire the Muslim majority is 99.8%. So much for the heart of the Eastern Orthodox church.

dodo said...

Μήπως η Αγιότης του δεν είχε εγκαίρως αντιληφθεί, ότι ως Ποντίφηξ βρίσκεται πλέον υπό ασφυκτική παρατήρηση;! Άλλο καρδινάλιος...
Πάντως, τα μάζεψε ευγενώς μετά.
Οι άλλοι το παρακάνουν τώρα...

Ecumene said...

@American Crusader
The term “Crusader” irritates also the Orthox

Pope John Paul II
has apologized for crusaders' rampage in 1204

The Pope delivered an emotional apology to Orthodox Christians yesterday for the Catholic plundering of Constantinople eight centuries ago, saying it caused him "pain and disgust".
He made his comments during a visit to the Vatican by Bartholomew I, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople and the head of the world's 300 million Orthodox Christians.
"In particular, we cannot forget what happened in the month of April 1204," the Pope said, in reference to the sacking of Constantinople by crusaders. "How can we not share, at a distance of eight centuries, the pain and disgust."
The incident, which was part of the Fourth Crusade, was one of the most violent events of the Middle Ages. It contributed to the collapse of the Byzantine Empire three centuries later.
Constantinople - now Istanbul - was the seat of the Roman Empire at the time and revered as a great Christian city. The main aim of the Fourth Crusade, which had the backing of Pope Innocent III, was to conquer Egypt, at that time the centre of Islamic power.
The crusading army sacked wealthy Constantinople in desperation, having built up a huge debt to the Republic of Venice, which had provided it with ships.

Reconciliation with the Orthodox Church has become a focal point of the Pope's 25-year reign and has gained in urgency as his health increasingly fails. The Vatican has long hoped to bring about a meeting between the Pope and the Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II, who has so far refused to see the Roman Catholic head, accusing Catholic priests of proselytising on Russian soil.
On a visit to Athens in 2001 the Pope asked God's forgiveness for Catholics, who he said had committed sins against Orthodox Christians for 1,000 years. He has also apologised to Muslims for the Crusades.

1453 by Ottomans

On May 22, 1453, the moon, symbol of Constantinople, rose in dark eclipse, fulfilling a prophecy on the city's demise. Four days later, the whole city was blotted out by a thick fog, a condition unknown in that part of the world in May. When the fog lifted that evening, "flames engulfed the dome of the Hagia Sophia, and lights, too, could be seen from the walls, glimmering in the distant countryside far behind the Turkish camp (to the west),". This was interpreted as some as the Holy Spirit departing from the Cathedral. All these phenomeae were however local effects of the cataclysmic Kuwae volcanic eruption in the Pacific Ocean. The "fire" seen was an optical illusion due to the reflection of intensely red twilight glow by clouds of volcanic ash high in the atmosphere[2].
On the morning of May 29 the attack began. The first wave of attackers, the azabs (auxilaries), were poorly trained and equipped, and were meant only to kill as many Byzantine defenders as possible. The second assault, consisting largely of Anatolians, focused on a section of the Blachernae walls in the northwest part of the city, which had been partially damaged by the cannon. This section of the walls had been built much more recently, in the eleventh century, and was much weaker; the crusaders in 1204 had broken through the walls there. The Ottoman attackers also managed to break through, but were just as quickly pushed back out by the Byzantine defenders. The Byzantines also managed for a time to hold off the third attack by the Sultan's elite Janissaries, but a Genoan general in charge of a section of the defense, Giovanni Giustiniani, was grievously wounded during the attack, and his evacuation from the ramparts caused a panic in the ranks of the defenders.
Some historians suggest that the Kerkoporta gate in the Blachernae section had been left unlocked, and the Ottomans soon discovered this mistake (there was no question of bribery or deceit by the Ottomans; the gate had simply been overlooked, probably because rubble from a cannon attack had obscured or blocked the door). The Ottomans rushed in. Constantine XI himself led the last defense of the city, and throwing aside his purple regalia, dove headfirst into the rushing Ottomans, dying in the ensuing battle in the streets, like his soldiers.
Mehmed had promised his troops they could loot the city for three days, in accordance with ancient military tradition. Many civilians were slaughtered by the Turks when they first burst through the walls and captured the towers on the land walls, although order was quickly restored. After the initial assault, the Ottoman army fanned out along the main throughfare of the city, the Mese, past the great forums, and past the mammoth church of the Holy Apostles, which Mehmet wanted spared to provide a seat for his newly appointed patriach which would help him better control his Christian subjects. Mehmet had sent an advance guard to protect key buildings such as the Holy Apostles, as he had did not wish to establish his new capital in a thoroughly devastated city.
The Army converged upon the Augusteum, the vast square that fronted the great church of Haghia Sophia whose bronze gates were barred by a huge throng of civilians inside the building, hoping for divine protection at this late hour. After the doors were breached, the troopes separated the congregation according to what price they might bring on the slave markets. A few of the elderly and some infants were summarily slain with a commercial ruthlessness. Soldiers fought over the possession of richly clad senators or for the comely youth or maiden.
There are many legends in Greece surrounding the Fall of Constantinople. One of them holds that two priests saying divine liturgy over the crowd disappeared into the cathedral's walls as the first Turkish soldiers entered. According to the legend, the priests will appear again on the day Constantinople returns to Christian hands[3]. Another legend refers to the Marble King, Constantine XI, holding that, when the Ottomans entered the city, an angel rescued the emperor, turned him into marble and placed him in a cave under the earth near the Golden Gate, where he waits to be brought to life again

Although Mehmet II allowed the rape, pillage and looting of the city, as was the custom of all armies during that age, he changed his mind after seeing the great structures of the city being destroyed and stopped the activities after 24 hours; unfortunately at that point a large part of the populace was either raped, despoiled, or enslaved. Of the estimated 50,000 persons residing in the city at the time of its capture, approximately half were still free when Mehmet issued his order to cease the pillage of the city.

Fall of Constantinople 1453

1204 by Crusaders

“They were not able to believe that there could be so rich a town in the whole world, those high walls and mighty towers, those luxurious palaces and lofty churches.”

Geoffrey de Villehardoin

a Crusader Chief..

The crusaders took the city on the 13th of April. They inflicted a horrible and savage sacking on Constantinople for three days, during which many ancient and medieval Roman and Greek works were stolen or destroyed. Despite their oaths and the threat of excommunication, the Crusaders ruthlessly and systematically violated the city's holy sanctuaries, destroying, defiling, or stealing all they could lay hands on; according to Choniates a prostitute was even set up on the Patriarchal throne. When Innocent III heard of the conduct of his pilgrims, he was filled with shame and strongly rebuked them.


The crusaders looted the whole city of its treasures. The Patriarch left Constantinople with neither money nor shoes, mounted on an ass. A whore was enthroned in the Patriarchal chair. Relics from the churches were distributed throughout Europe – many of the most precious treasures of Venice came from the sack of Constantinople. Not only Christian relics, but also ancient pagan treasures were lost. A bronze of Hercules was melted down, as well as a statue of Pegasus by Alexander the Great’s court sculptor. The bronze horses now at St Mark's Cathedral in Venice formed part of the loot. The total of plunder came to four hundred thousand silver marks and ten thousand horses, not taking into account the amount “stolen” by the troops.

The Pope was horrified when he learned what had happened.
The rift between the Greek Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church was perpetuated. Even 250 years later, when the Turks were besieging Constantinople, one of the City’s last great statesmen(Loukas Notaras)remarked “Better the Sultan’s turban than the cardinal’s hat”.
Capture of Constantinople 1204
The tragic irony is that he was beheaded by the Sultan

The kindness that Mehmet had shown to the Emperor's surviving ministers was of short duration.... Five days after the fall of the city [3 June] he gave a banquet. In the course of it, when he was well flushed with wine, someone whispered to him that Notaras's fourteen-year old son was a boy of exceptional beauty. The Sultan at once sent a eunuch to the house of the [Megas Doux] to demand that the boy be sent to him for his pleasure. Notaras, whose elder sons had been killed fighting, refused to sacrifice the boy to such a fate. Police were then sent to bring Notaras with his son and his young son-in-law, the son of the Grand Domestic Andronicus Cantacuzenus, into the Sultan's presence. When Notaras still defied the Sultan, orders were given for him and the two boys to be decapitated on the spot. Notaras merely asked that they should be slain before him, lest the sight of his death should make them waver. When they had both perished he bared his neck to the executioner. The following day nine other Greek notables were arrested and sent to the scaffold.
Loukas Notaras

Ecumene said...

And the LAST STRAW....

ISTANBUL KRISTALNACHT against Greek minoriry

By an allied NATO-Country!

What does the treaty of Lausanne determine(1923)?.......................

İsmet İnönü was the lead negotiator for Turkey and Eleftherios Venizelos was his Greek counterpart. The treaty provided for the independence of the Republic of Turkey but also for the protection of the ethnic Greek minority in Turkey and the mainly ethnically Turkish Muslim minority in Greece. Much of the Greek population of Turkey was exchanged with the Turkish population of Greece. The Greeks of Istanbul, Imbros and Tenedos were excluded (about 270,000 in Istanbul alone at that time [1]), and so were the Muslim population of Western Thrace (about 86,000 [2] in 1922). The article 14 of the treaty granted the islands of Imbros and Tenedos a special administrative organisation (autonomy), a right that was revoked by the Turkish government on 17 February 1926. The republic of Turkey, as the inheritor of the Ottoman Empire, also accepted the loss of Cyprus to the British Empire. The fate of the province of Mosul was left to be determined through the League of Nations.


Now in Istanbul a number of 2.000 Greeks live………..

While on the contrary,in west Thrace,in Greece
120,000 Turks…

Two Theological Schools (Coranic Schools) with five grades of classes exist in the towns of Komotini and Echinos. The schools were founded in 1949 and 1956, respectively. They ensure the religious education of those Muslim children who aim either at continuing their studies in religious educational institutions of a higher level or at exercising the functions of a Hatip or an Imam; i.e. becoming a lower-level religious functionary of Islam.

But in Turkey ,they have closed
down the Halki,theological school
since 1971


USA Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom.

QUESTION: Mr. Ambassador, did you note the same (inaudible) in religious freedom in Turkey, specifically vis-à-vis to the opening of the Theological School of Halki, of the ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople in Istanbul under the auspices of the ecumenical Patriarch of Bartholomew?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: I’m disappointed to say that we continually raise the Halki Seminary. I certainly have in meeting after meeting, as have our Ambassador and others. And we’ve been disappointed that there has not been any progress on this. This is frustrating because I think just in a matter of days, the seminary could be up and running. There are people that take care of it. And I think quickly, students and professors could be on the scene. And so we are frustrated that this has continued to be the case. And of course, the patriarchy is restricted still to citizens only of Turkey, and this continues to pose a problem as well since there are only 2,500 of those. But I can assure you that these are issues that we are raising.

QUESTION: One more. In recent (inaudible) with the Turkish Government of (inaudible) regarding this issue and some others like the protection of properties, belonging to the ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople in Instanbul -- some of them, Mr. Ambassador, which has been confiscated by Ankara even most recently.

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: We’re aware of these too. I do not have an intimate familiarity with property by property, but again, these are issues that we are raising.


PASOK is a greek party
(as you have Democrats in USA..)
has named a Muslim regional candidate

The ANA reports: "Main opposition PASOK party leader George Papandreou, addressing the party's Parliamentary Group on Thursday, made a surprise announcement ahead of October's local elections in the country in naming Gül Karahasan, a woman member of the Moslem community, as the party's candidate for the Drama-Xanthi-Kavala supraprefecture. " Papandreou said the selection "symbolizes the essence of PASOK's policy on the cohabitation of religions and cultures." Lets see how this plays with Greek voters.,


A NEW ERA BEGINS?...............

we ll see....

FreeCyprus said...

ETL, you're right, time for the women to take over. We men have run the planet long enough and have gotten enough folks killed...

Regarding the Pope.

He knew what he was doing.
It was all strategic.

The current Pope did what others have been doing with Christianity for centuries: challenging, criticizing, creating debate. Muslims, even "moderate" muslims, do not want debate as this leads to analysis of everything, a careful reading of every word in the Qu'oran.

The criticisms of Christianity are always about the actions of Christians centuries after the death of Jesus. Has anyone out there actually criticized the words of Jesus?

"Love one another."

"Love thy neighbour as you would love yourself, that is the greatest Commandment."

Hard to argue with that (although many try to...)

Muslims can debate the merits of every religion on planet earth - Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc - but cannot debate the merits of their own.

Do they really think it's a "sin" to debate Islam...or is the real truth that most Muslims don't think their religion can withstand the analysis and critique...

Reflex said...

Extremely interesting synthesis. Mybe the pope lacked a bit of tact (or not?).

ioannisk said...

@American Crusader
“After the Turks took the city of Constantinople they massacred the residents with their SWORDS.”
Until very recently this was the rule of conquering a place, everybody did it. Of course we could mention the American policy in Iraq as an example of killings which is also done in the name of a god. On the other hand the ottoman empire was an example of religious tolerance for its era. I suppose you ignore than when the Jews where expelled by the Christians in the 16th century the Ottoman Empire offered them asylum. All religions have their (well fed) record of crimes against non believers.

“there is barely a church left standing.”
You should visit Istanbul and admire its Byzantine churches and its ottoman mosques and do not forget to visit the Orthodox Patriarchate (the equivalent of Vatican) who knows you might see the Patriarch.

“In the former heart of the Byzantine Empire the Muslim majority is 99.8%.”
And 2000 years ago in Greece 100% of the population were pagans, so what?

Περί άμυνας και επίθεσης. Νομίζω πως χρησιμοποιείς ένα (ελληνικό) εθνικό μύθο: Οι έλληνες είναι προστάτες της δύσης από τους βάρβαρους που έρχονται από την ανατολή*. Δεν πολέμησαν μόνο οι Βυζαντινοί τους Μουσουλμάνους. Μπορώ να σου αναφέρω την reconquista, την πολιορκία της Βιέννης από τους Οθωμανούς κλπ.
* Οι πολωνοί λένε το ίδιο μόνο που ο πολιτισμός είναι αυτοί (καθολικοί) και βάρβαροι οι ορθόδοξοι (Ρώσοι).

Ecumene said...


Islam, like Christianity, is not above criticism

Anyone is free to speak
and should be open to


Thank you for your tactful comment about synthesis...

if anyone reads some quranic verses(out of the context)
he may find them intact and offensive...

So what?....

Should he go to the streets
and shout for killing the muslims?....

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.

"Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je suis prêt à me battre jusqu'à la mort pour votre droit à le dire"


Ecumene said...


Bush and neocons are believers to God but Iraq - operation is (officially)
in the name of Democracy

At that time,the worse place
for a Jew was a catholic country
(Holy Inquisition)

Ottoman empire was

selectively tolerant

because in those years

fought against

Spain and Catholicism
I remind to you
the above comments
about the greek minority............

(the equivalent to Vatican)

Tell that to turkish government!

Do you plan a Vatican-like state
inside Istanbul?..................


And I did not say about civilizations(supreme or inferior..)
I said that at those centuries
Byzantium was under attack
that' why Pope chose this

Ecumene said...

N e w s!!!...

What about this?...

Islam conference in Germany wants to see banned opera of Idomeneo,due to fears over muslim reactions

Ecumene said...

How much criticism can withstand a "wannabe european" and leader of political Islam
like Turkish president Erdogan?.....

Man fined for criticising turkish islamist president

From correspondents in Ankara, Turkey

September 28, 2006 02:22am

AN Ankara court fined an elderly man 10,000 lira ($8929) for criticising Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan in a visitors' book at the former home of Kemal Ataturk, revered founder of modern Turkey.

Fethi Dorduncu visited the house in the Greek city of Thessaloniki in May and wrote in the visitors' book that Mr Erdogan was a "traitor" bent on destroying Ataturk's secular republic and building an Islamic state in Turkey.

Mr Erdogan ripped the page from the book in anger when he later visited the house, which is now a museum, in the city where Ataturk was born in 1881 when it was still part of the Ottoman Empire ruled from Istanbul.

The Ankara court ordered Mr Dorduncu, who is in his 80s, to pay damages for the pain and anguish he caused Mr Erdogan, the state Anatolian news agency said. Mr Erdogan's lawyers had originally sought damages of 20,000 lira.

Secularists have long accused Mr Erdogan and his centre-right AK Party of trying to dismantle Ataturk's secular state, founded in 1923 on the ashes of the old religion-based Ottoman Empire.

AN Ankara court fined an elderly man 10,000 lira ($8929) for criticising Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan

Anonymous said...

Hi read through your blog and think it is a good blog.That man is a muslim who cares for Allah's creation.
Wish you well

Ecumene said...

for the visit..

What man ?...Erdogan?...

ok he is a muslim

but why is he intolerant
to critisicm?

He could pay no attention
to the incident and move on..

or he could call Dorduncu
for a debate

Anyone can speak free

Dorduncu, is 80 years old...
$8929 is a large amount for a turkish citizen

Ecumene said...

Turkish leader renews criticism of Pope

Sep. 28 (CWNews.com) - Turkey's Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan has renewed his criticism of Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news), who is scheduled to visit Turkey in November.

In his speech to the university faculty of Regensburg, Erdogan said, the Pope "spoke in a way that is not fitting even for us politicians." He said that the Pontiff had insulted Mohammed, and "we could not tolerate this."

The Turkish premier complained that Pope Benedict still has not apologized for his speech, saying that public statements released by the Vatican and by the Pontiff himself have been "maneuvers" to avoid direct responsibility. He predicted that when the Pontiff travels to Turkey in November, President Ahmet Necdet Sezer will "say the necessary things" to rebuke him.


Unknown said...

Ergo te lina, επιτρέψτε μου ορισμένες παρατηρήσεις (στη μητρική μου γλώσσα!):

Η 4η Σταυροφορία δεν συνέβαλε στο τέλος της Βυζαντινής Αυτοκρατορίας, την διέλυσε τότε. Αυτό που ανασυστάθηκε το 1261 από τους Παλαιολόγους δεν ήταν Αυτοκρατορία, ήταν μια πόλη-κράτος περικυκλωμένη από εχθρούς.

Η Οθωμανική αυτοκρατορία δεν ήταν selectively tolerant, ήταν γενικώς και συνεχώς (αρκεί να πλήρωνες τους σχετικούς φόρους). Ουδέποτε η Οθωμανική αυτοκρατορία πολέμησε την Ισπανία. Επίσης, δεν πολέμησε ποτέ τον "Καθολικισμό". Πολέμησε εναντίον Καθολικών κρατών, όπως επίσης και εναντίον Ορθοδόξων αλλά και Μουσουλμάνων φυσικά! Οι αυτοκρατορίες ποσώς ενδιαφέρονται για τη θρησκεία των υπηκόων τους - αρκεί να πληρώνουν φόρους και να μην αμφισβητούν την εξουσία τους. Αν η Ορθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία ήταν επιλεκτικά ανεκτική θα είχε επιδοθεί σε διωγμούς Χριστιανών όταν υπήρχε ειρήνη στα σύνορα - όμως ουδέποτε συνέβησαν διωγμοί.

Γενικά, η Ιστορία έχει δείξει ότι οι Μουσουλμάνοι ήταν σε γενικές γραμμές ανεκτικοί απέναντι στους αλλόθρησκους αντίθετα με τους Χριστιανούς που γενικά είναι μισαλλόδοξοι.

Ecumene said...


The whole Islam was on war with Spain
(El Cid Campeador- Moors)
and the Ottomans were regarded as defenders of Islam....................

Have you heard about Charles V
the so-called "Holy Roman Emperor"?

Naval Battle of Lepante(Nafpaktos)
Don Quixote?..

Republic of Venice
Papal States
Republic of Genoa
Duchy of Savoy
Knights of Malta

against Ottoman Empire

Wars against the Ottoman Empire

Charles had been fighting with the Ottoman Empire and its sultan, Suleiman the Magnificent, for a number of years. The expeditions of the Ottoman force along the Mediterranean coast posed a threat to Hapsburg lands and the peace of Western Europe. In Central Europe, the Turkish advance was halted at Vienna in 1529, which they besieged unsuccessfully. In 1535 Charles won an important victory at Tunis, but in 1536 Francis I of France allied himself with Suleiman against Charles. While Francis was persuaded to sign a peace treaty in 1538, he again allied himself with the Ottomans in 1542. In 1543 Charles allied himself with Henry VIII and forced Francis to sign the Truce of Crepy-en-Laonnois. Charles later signed a humiliating treaty with the Ottomans, to gain him some respite from the huge expenses of their war, although it wasn't over. However, the Protestant powers in the Holy Roman Empire Diet often voted against money for his Turkish wars, as many Protestants saw the Muslim advance as a counterweight to the Catholic powers. The great Hungarian defeat at the 1526 Battle of Mohacs was in some ways a moral defeat for the West as a whole


You see the chessboard gaming...

Protestansts in England and Holland
who had also protected Jews
were thinking an alliance with Ottomans
against Catholics...

Was the Ottoman Empire tolerant
by the meaning of Voltaire and
French Enlightenment?
that is my point..

No subordinate to the rule of a Sultanic Monarchy was killed?

Orthodox Neomartyrs who was killed by muslims

Athanasios the Neomartyr (+1700)

(January 7)

The Holy Martyr Athanasius. This martyr of Christ was a poor and simple man, but was rich in faith and in wisdom through the Spirit of God. On one occasion he was inadvertently involved in a quarrel with a Turk. The Turk was educated and adroit with words, but Athanasius strove with all his might to present and uphold the truth of the Christian faith and its superiority over Islam. They then parted. On the following day, Athanasius was summoned to trial, and found the Turk standing there as his accuser. When the judge called on Athanasius to repudiate his faith and embrace Islam, as he had given the impression of declaring to his companion of the previous day, Athanasius cried out: 'I would die a thousand deaths before I would deny the Faith of Christ!' He was therefore condemned to death and beheaded in the year 1700. His body was buried in the Church of St Paraskeva in Smyrna, the city of his execution.


The Myth of Islamic Tolerance

* How the great Islamic empires of the past were funded by oppressive taxes collected from non-Muslims

* Shocking prescriptions of Islamic law that require non-Muslims to be mistreated and oppressed

* The Islamic critique of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights: how it rejects core Judeo-Christian values -- and was adopted by every Muslim nation in the world

Most muslims/Muslim countries/muslim organisations have villified the West, blaming it for ill-treating muslims/islam and not respecting muslims' human rights e.g. headscarf issue in France, Muhammad cartoons in Denmark/West, Guantanamo, Iraq, Afghanistan, blah,blah, while getting away with criminal violations of Human/Non-Muslims' rights in their own countries, such as Abdul Rahman's has shown.

It's high time the people / Human rights organisations in the West start a campaign to pressure Muslim countries/organisations of muslim countries (e.g.OIC, based in Geneva) to adhere unreservedly to Article 18 of UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which I've reproduced below), because non Muslims in Muslim countries face harm if they dare open their mouths on this.

When all Muslim countries unreservedly accept Article 18 (right to convert out of Islam), I think this acceptance will be the true beginning of "moderate Islam" and not the "Religion of Peace" propaganda we get now.

( UN Article 18. - Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.)


* The use of jihad ideology by twentieth-century radical Muslim theorists -- who have made their intentions to reinstate oppressive measures of Islamic law applying to non-Muslims clear

* How Muslim apologists in the United States and Western Europe bamboozle non-Muslims - and influence public policy in dangerous ways

* Why so many who convert from Islam to Christianity must live in fear and move about furtively

* Non-Muslims in Muslim countries: the long history and present reality of oppression and inequality

The debate is not about Christians and Muslims
but about Voltairian tolerance
and the religions that
do not want any critisicm...

You can count on that any Christian fanatic off-course...

Ecumene said...

"Τα εκπορευόμενα εστί τα κοινούντα τον άνθρωπον"
Φοβάμαι ότι μετά τους Δίδυμους Πύργους και τις εισβολές που ακολούθησαν στο Αφγανιστάν και το Ιράκ, οι δυνατότητες του διαλόγου (για πολεμικές ούτε λόγος να γίνεται) αναιρούνται κι απαγορεύονται, ανοίγοντας τον δρόμο προς την κόλαση της τυραννίας.

Είναι προτιμότερο να μπορείς να προσβάλλεις κάποιον πολιτικώς, ηθικώς, φιλοσοφικώς, θρησκευτικώς παρά να φοβάσαι να το κάνεις, επειδή έχει ποινικοποιηθεί η σκέψη κι έχει νομιμοποιηθεί ο φόβος. Τότε είσαι νεκρός! τόσον εσύ που φοβάσαι όσον κι εκείνος που (νομίζει ότι δικαιούται να) σου επιβάλει αντίποινα αντί να σε αντιμετωπίσει με τη δική του σκέψη.

Και, στο κάτω - κάτω, αν δεν ξεστομίσεις (απ' τον φόβο και την καταστολή) το λάθος σου, πώς θα λάβεις την απάντηση που θα το καθαιρέσει; θα μείνει

μέσα σου με τη βεβαιότητα του σωστού, του ανείπωτου σωστού που σε τρώει. Του παράνομου και πικρού σωστού. Ο δρόμος για τον εκφασισμό του τρόπου σου, τότε έχει ήδη ανοίξει.


Για να καταλάβουμε πόσον τρομερά και τραγικά είναι όλα αυτά, αρκεί το γεγονός ότι η ομιλία του Πάπα, η οποία τόσον έντονα κατηγορήθηκε για προσβολή του Ισλάμ, επεδίωκε μάλλον το αντίθετο (επικρίνοντας μάλιστα εμμέσως τη Δύση ότι απομακρύνεται απ' αυτό της το κεκτημένο), τον διάλογο. Και τους όρους που είναι απαραίτητοι για να μην είναι αυτός ο διάλογος ατελέσφορος.

Το ακόμα τρομερότερον και τραγικότερον είναι ότι αμέσως μετά το πρώτο μπάχαλο, όταν στη συνέχεια δόθηκαν κάποιες εξηγήσεις, ή τέλος πάντων έγινε φανερό ότι δεν έχουν τα πράγματα όπως τα παρουσίασαν οι καλοθελητάδες,

παρά ταύτα,

οι απαιτήσεις να ζητήσει συγγνώμην ο Ποντίφηκας δεν έχασαν τη ζέση τους, παρέμειναν ισχυρές (ενίοτε και πιο έντονες) η πολιτική εκμετάλλευση και η προπαγάνδα είχαν αρχίσει τον χαβά τους

και μάλιστα κορυβαντιούσαν με ευθέως ανάλογη ένταση της δυσκολίας του Πάπα να ζητήσει συγγνώμη για κάτι που δεν είπε, σαν να το είπε. Δηλαδή να αυτοενοχοποιηθεί.

Το φαινόμενο αυτό εμφανίζεται όλο και πιο πυκνά. Γίνεται όλο και πιο αδυσώπητο. Απλώνεται στις διακρατικές σχέσεις, στις πολιτικές, τις οικονομικές και τις ανθρώπινες.

Ομως το θέμα είναι μεγάλο και θα συνεχίσουμε κι αύριο, βλέποντας κατ' αρχήν τι είπε ο Πάπας, για να ξέρουμε για τι μιλάμε...

ΥΓ. Πριν αλέκτορα φωνήσαι, στο Βερολίνο δεν ανεβάζουν κακήν κακώς την όπερα Ιδομενέας για τον φόβο των φανατικών. (Ο Ιδομενέας στο τέλος του φερώνυμου έργου έχει τσουβαλιάσει τα κομμένα κεφάλια θεών και προφητών, απ' τον Βούδα και τον Ιησού έως τον Δία και τον Μωάμεθ). Λόγω φόβου λοιπόν (των βάφεν Ες-Ες;) το έργο δεν ανεβαίνει. Ομως απ' τη στιγμή που οι Σπάρτακοι και οι Θερσίτες δεν θα δικαιούνται να κόβουν τα κεφάλια των θεών τους, ο ελληνορωμαϊκός πολιτισμός (κι όχι μόνον) θα έχει εκμετρήσει τον βίον...


Ecumene said...

If a Muslim leader said
some quotes insulting
Jesus etc
Would you watch that fanatic parade?

Regarding the opera Idomeneo

Why did they put out of the play the heads of Poseidon,Buddha and Jesus?...

Unknown said...

Hmm... who's tolerant and who's not: In the Iranian national football team in Germany's Mundial it was a Christian (!) player. He was even noticed making the sign of cross entering the field! On the other side, the famous basketball player Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was barred from the 1968 Olympics USA team because of his conversion to Islam.

"Was the Ottoman Empire tolerant
by the meaning of Voltaire and
French Enlightenment?

Was the Habsburg Empire tolerant
by the meaning of Voltaire and
French Enlightenment? The French Monarchy? The Inquisition? Did the Ottoman Empire suffer a Thirty Years' War?

No-one argues that the Ottoman Empire was an authoritarian state. But it was authoritarian because it was an Empire not because it was a Muslim state. Evey european empire or kingdom of that era was authoritarian in present terms - and more intolerant than the Ottoman Empire (Cuius regio, eius religio). And they were Christian states.

Ecumene said...


said ...making the sign of cross entering the field!

In what way did he make the sign
of cross?.............

Jabbar was not barred!

He was raised as a Catholic with the name Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor and then converted to Islam
in a time the movement of Black Powerists was new and strong

Beyond his athletic accomplishments, Jabbar also introduced a new level of racial awareness to basketball by boycotting the 1968 Olympic team, converting to Islam, and changing his name.


Can a Muslim
renegate without fear
his religion?


When all Muslim countries unreservedly accept Article 18 (right to convert out of Islam), I think this acceptance will be the true beginning of "moderate Islam" and not the "Religion of Peace" propaganda we get now.

( UN Article 18. - Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.)

Hakeem Olajuwon (of US dream team!)
Nicolas Anelka Franck Ribery(FR)
Mike Tyson Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay)Usa

Aside from Islam,government of Iran only recognizes three other religions, Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism. Other religious groups including the Bahá'ís, biggest religious minority in Iran, are not recognized and do not have any representative in the parliament.
Iran's religious minorities – including Bahá'ís, Jews, Christians, and Sufi Muslims – reported imprisonment, harassment, and intimidation based on their religious beliefs. At least four Bahá'ís and eight Jews are currently imprisoned for reasons related to their faith.
Society is accustomed to the presence of non-Muslim communities, some of which predate Islam. However, government actions create a threatening atmosphere for some religious minorities, especially Bahá'ís, Jews, and evangelical Christians.

Status of religious freedom in Iran

Enlightened absolutism
benevolent despotism or enlightened despotism) is a term used to describe the actions of absolute rulers who were influenced by the Enlightenment, a historical period of the 18th and early 19th centuries. The main Enlightenment-era proponent of this system was Voltaire, who regularly corresponded with several of the rulers of this time.

Catherine II of Russia
• Frederick II of Prussia
• Gustav III of Sweden
• Maria Theresa of Austria
• Charles III of Spain
• Joseph II, Holy Roman Emperor
• Leopold II, Holy Roman Emperor

NO SULTAN ENLIGHTENED EXISTS......................



Anyway European people themselves broke down the Authoritarian Rulers............

In Islamic countries,they remain even today…………………………

Access to the requested URL is not allowed by Saudi Laws

Show me a non-military democratized muslim state!


ovi said...

Ergotelinen σε ευχαριστώ πολύ που παραθέτεις το αγγλικό άρθρο μου από το Ovi αλλά θα προτιμήσω να συνεχίσω εδώ στα ελληνικά.
Η πραγματικότητα είναι ότι εγώ δεν έχω σχεδόν καμιά εικόνα για το τι συμβαίνει στην Ελλάδα και φαντάζομαι ότι σε μια κοινωνίες που κυριαρχούν νομάρχες που αρνούνται σε ένα Έλληνα πολίτη το δικαίωμα να εκλέγει και να εκλέγεται για λόγους θρησκευτικούς τα πράγματα είναι μάλλον ...ελεγχόμενα (για να μην παρεξηγηθώ, είμαι ειρωνικός ως προς ον κ. Στριγκ νομάρχη)
Στη βόρειο Ευρώπη τα πράγματα είναι λίγο διαφορετικά και στην εξέλιξη αυτής της πολυπολιτισμικής κοινωνίας και του σεβασμού πολύ φοβάμαι ότι χάσαμε το έλεγχο και περάσαμε στην απέναντι πλευρά. Άνθρωποι με ιστορία σε ΜΜΕ απολύονται με μόνη δικαιολογία ότι κατακρίνανε την συγνώμη που ζήτησαν κάποιοι ευρωπαίοι πρωθυπουργοί για τα σκίτσα του Μωάμεθ, πολλοί αναρωτιόμαστε αν θα είμαστε οι επόμενοι μιας και ποτέ δεν ξέρεις πότε κάτι που γράφεις θα ‘προσβάλει’ κάποιον φανατικό και από που θα σου έρθει. Παράλληλα και με αφορμή την τελευταία ομιλία του Παπα τα ισλαμικά συμβούλια στις βορειοευρωπαϊκές χώρες έχουν ξεσαλώσει και βλέποντας από τη μια τον ίδιο τον παπα να απολογείται από την άλλη τους ευρωπαϊκούς ηγέτες να κρατάνε μια στάση απόστασης και επιφυλακτικότητας απαιτούν όλο και περισσότερα έχοντας περάσει πια σε απειλές και εκβιασμούς.
Αυτή ήταν λοιπόν η πολυπολιτισμική Ευρώπη που ονειρευόμασταν και πολύ περισσότερο εκεί πάνε τόσα χρόνια αγώνες για ελεύθερη έκφραση; Που τελικά χάθηκε ότι κανένας δεν είναι ένοχος μέχρι αποδείξεως της ενοχής του αφού αυτή τη στιγμή φτάνει η κατηγορία ή η υποψία κατηγορίας από κάποιον φανατικό στο Πακιστάν για να χάσω εγώ τη δουλειά μου στη Φιλανδία!
Ούτε το θέμα με τα σκίτσα του Μωάμεθ, ούτε ο λόγος του παπα, ούτε τέλος το ότι συμβαίνει αυτή τη στιγμή στην όπερα του Βερολίνου είναι το θέμα, αυτά είναι η κορυφή του παγόβουνου και αυτά τα προβλήματα θα αυξάνονται με λογαριθμική ακρίβεια. Το παγόβουνο δυστυχώς το φτιάξαμε οι ίδιοι και να δούμε πως θα το αντιμετωπίσουμε τώρα.

Παρ΄επιπτόντως ανω στην υπόθεση με τα σκίτσα είχαν πρωτοστατήσει οι Ιρανοί με την υπόθεση του Πάπα τη φασαρία την κάνουν Τούρκοι και ειδικά στη Γερμανία.

Ecumene said...

Στη Φινλανδία πως τα είδαν όλα

Μπορεί και ως Προτεσταντες να μην
εκτιμουν τον Παπα....

Eδω βρηκα ενα αρθρο μουσουλμανου
που επικαλειται το ναζιστικο
παρελθον της Γερμανίας
και το συγκρίνει
με την προσβλητική οπερα.....

Ειναι ζητημα δημοκρατίας...
Εχουμε δικαιώματα...

Ποια τεχνη και ελευθερη εκφραση;;

Dear readers, she pays little attention to the fact that the Muslims are now a major community in Germany. Turkish immigrants form a major chunk of today's multicultural and multifaith Germany. And they have rights just like other German citizens. Merkel cannot ignore them. As the elected leader of Germany, she has to take into account what upsets and hurts her people, even if they are a minority. They are German citizens and have equal rights just as others. German leadership cannot afford to ignore a community of more than four million people.

Another outrage — in Germany

Kαι απο την άλλη..........

"Why must we cower before Islam?” blared the mass circulation Bild, whose pages included a photo montage of the German Reichstag, or parliament, with minarets poking from the roof. “Cowardice before the enemy!” stewed John Dew, the artistic director of Darmstadt’s state theater in Die Welt, a newspaper. German politicians denounced the decision as “kneeling to terrorism”. The ordinarily understated Chancellor Angela Merkel called the decision to cancel the show “unbearable”.
In an attempt to cool things down, the head of Germany’s Turkish Community, Kenan Kolat, suggested that the 30 participants at a government-sponsored Islamic conference meeting in Berlin attend together a special showing of the opera as a gesture, an idea the government has approved though the Oper itself has yet to make a decision. “We are moving in the direction of a clash of civilizations,” Kolat told TIME. “I understand the feelings of those who may be hurt by the depiction but in the 21st century, art should be free and independent of religion.


Anonymous said...

>Outrage!!! The Pope commits heresy against the Jewish faith

I couldn't Belive it, In fact I still can't!
I've just read the lecture by the Pope presented at the University of Regensburg
This is an outrage! Burn the Churches! Attack the Pope!

Belinha Fernandes said...

Hello!!Loved the piece on Manuel II...As for the reactions on Pope's speech discussion leeds to the same old question on conflict between East and West and more and more I get tired of it and more and more I think that it's harder to think that there might be a dialoge to bring this fight to an end...I read what FreeCyprus wrote:"You cannot "reason" with this kind of mentality by talking about love, peace and forgiveness. Unfortunately, the only thing they understand is violence." I fear this kind of opinion as I fear the muslim violence itself.At certain point the way we react to events might be what makes us different... for better.I don't want to belive that there's nothing more than this kind of mentality in muslim world.I want to believe that an ungry violent minority rules and that good sense will overcome one day.Because there's history and culture there.A kind of wall between cultures grows higher everyday.That's a shame for the world.I know some of them hate me.They don't know me but I live in the West, so they hate me.I know that I might be killed just because of that geo detail as we live global these days.Anyway I still want to believe that we must fight back our hate when we give in to it.Because it's hard not to hate.In fact it's easier than to understand or "reason".I don't mean give the other cheek just like that!But we must seek ways.And try,and try,and try...Anyway this matter is so,so complex.Who am I to say what?I wish I could go to sleep and wake up in a clean and peacefull world.Only in my dreams of course...

Do you like Madonna?I think she's quite a performer although her music isn't so special.There's a Madonna record I like- Ray of light.It's the only one I have.

Have a nice weekend !!(Your blog is indeed great)

ovi said...

Το πρωτο σημείωμα σου για του Τούρκους τη Γερμανίας είναι ακριβώς το παγόβουνο που μιλάω, οι εκβιασμοί και οι απειλές, αυτό ζούμε όλοι στη βόρειο Ευρώπη. Το ισλαμικό συμβούλιο εδώ στη Φιλανδία έχει πάρει τις ανάλογες εντολές αλλά προς το παρόν αναλώνονται σε εσωτερικές διδαχές. Βλέπεις νικήσανε με τα καρτούν με δυο απολύσεις, τρία sites κλειστά και δυο δίκες που αναβλήθηκαν μεν αλλά ποτέ δεν ακούστηκε η άλλη άποψη, παρέμεινε ότι ακόμα και η δικαιοσύνη φοβάται μη δημιουργήσει ...πρόβλημα. Στο τέλος θα δούμε φιλανδικές σημαίες να καίγονται στο κέντρο με τα ανάλογα ΜΑΤ να τους προστατεύουν μην στεναχωρηθεί ο Bin Laden!!!
Κάτι ανάλογο δεν συνέβη πριν από μερικούς μήνες με το ιερέα στην Αγγλία που ευχαριστούσε τον Αλάχ για τη δύναμη που έδωσε στους βομβιστές να χτυπήσουν το μετρό; Δεν θυμάμαι το όνομα του τώρα!

Το θέμα δεν είναι το ισλάμ ούτε αν υποχωρούμε στο ισλάμ, τέτοιο θέμα δεν υπάρχει γιατί έτσι κι αλλιώς όσοι έχουν διαβάσει το Κοράνι ξέρουν ότι δεν υπάρχει κάτι περισσότερο επιθετικό από όσο υπάρχει στη βίβλο, απεναντίας είναι και πολύ ερωτικό, αλλά όπως έγραψα και κάπου αλλού και αυτό που έγραψα αυτή τη στιγμή είναι πιθανή αιτία για μένα να χάσω τη δουλειά μου γιατί η φωνή κάποιου φανατικού από το Πακιστάν έχει γίνει πιο ισχυρή από τη δική μου.

Οσο για το τι συμβαίνει με την οπερα του Mozart αδυνατώ να το κουβεντιάσω άλλο γιατί αγγίζουν τα όρια της τρέλας και του παραλόγου τα επιχειρήματα.

Unknown said...

In what way did he make the sign
of cross?

The way all faithful Christians do when attending the Holy Mass ;-?

Can a Muslim
renegate without fear
his religion?

Hope you won't ask for names and addresses ;-P. But take a look here:
"[...]the majority Muslim population was gradually converted to Roman Catholicism."
This also might be interesting, especially to you: "[...]the number rapidly declined to 9% when the Greek War of Independence had as an effect those remaining Muslim Cretans to re-convert to Greek Orthodoxy."

Show me a non-military democratized muslim state

Bosnia & Herzegovina, Albania, Algeria, Egypt, Bangladesh...

Anyway European people themselves broke down the Authoritarian Rulers...
In Islamic countries,they remain even today...

Algerian War of Independence
Egypt's Liberal Experiment
Syria's Independence
Bangladesh Liberation War
etc. etc.

Have you ever wondered why no-one feared Islam before 1979? What happened then and Islam became so dreadful?

FreeCyprus said...

"We do not object to Saudis building mosques in America and Europe...."

Not at all. That is the beauty of Western civilization. That is why so many North American & European men and women have lost their lives over the years...defending those freedoms.

Can I build a Hindu or Buddhist temple in Saudi Arabia? (ok, we all know the answer...)

The world is becoming Sick And Tired

FreeCyprus said...

Algeria & Egypt are the best examples of NOT being "non-militaristic, democratic countries"

Want to leave Christianity...go for it, with freedom.

Want to leave Judiasm, Hinduism, Buddhism...go ahead, with freedom.

Want to leave Islam? You may lose your life:


"to protect them from becoming the target of Islamic persecution. The penalty of apostasy in Islam is death. Here is my own testimony."

Ecumene said...


Yes the sign of cross id different among Orthodox,Catholics and Protestants

The Algerian paradigm is specific
Two choices……Military regime(maybe west-friendly or corrupted)
And Sharia Law!.......No Civic liberal and democratic road …..
Liberals in Muslim world are minority and scape-goats

The Algerian Civil War was an armed conflict between the Algerian government and various Islamist rebel groups which began in 1991. It is estimated to have cost over 150,000 lives. The conflict effectively ended with a government victory, following the surrender of the Islamic Salvation Army and the 2002 defeat of the Armed Islamic Group. However, low-level fighting still continues in some areas.
The conflict began in December 1991, when the government cancelled elections after the first round results had shown that the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) party would win, citing fears that the FIS would end democracy. After the FIS was banned and thousands of its members arrested, Islamist guerrillas rapidly emerged and began an armed campaign against the government and its supporters.


Ottoman centuries over Crete were the most dark ages of the history of the island
After the Cretan-Venetian Literature and Art,nothing left,only wars,oppressions and illiteracy

A minority of the population (local Greek notables) converted to Islam, so that the Cretan ruling class remained Greek-speaking.
Greek converts to Islam might have been as high as 45% of the island, but the number rapidly declined to 9% when the Greek War of Independence had as an effect those remaining Muslim Cretans to re-convert to Greek Orthodoxy. The majority of contemporary estimates calculate the number of Muslim Cretans remaining at the eve of the 20th century at 30,000, 9% of the island's population. Most of those Muslims were local Greek converts who spoke Cretan Greek, yet at the dawn of Greek nationalism, the Christian population labeled them "Turks" [1] [2]. Their descendants are still found in several Muslim countries today, and principally in Turkey (numbering over 200,000).

You see again conversions............

What Islam says about its own conversions?...............

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

In Islamic law (sharia), the consensus view is that a male apostate must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or converted under duress, for example, due to an imminent danger of being killed. A female apostate must be either executed, according to Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), or imprisoned until she reverts to Islam as advocated by the Sunni Hanafi school and by Shi'a scholars

Apostasy in Islam

What happened in 1979?....


Deepak Gopi said...

My blog had been lost for a while,now retrieved.
enjoy a nice week end

dodo said...

Η ανάμνηση τής πολύμηνης (πανω από χρόνο) ομηρείας αμερικανών μέσα στην πρεσβεία τών ΗΠΑ στην Τεχεράνη το 1980 πονά ακόμη- και ίσως επηρεάζει πολιτικές αποφάσεις...

Ecumene said...


Democrats and Carter
do not want to remember

The Iran hostage crisis was a 444-day period (about 14 months), during which student proxies of the new Iranian regime held hostage 66 diplomats and citizens of the United States inside the U.S. embassy in Tehran. The standoff lasted from November 4, 1979 until January 20, 1981. During the crisis, some hostages were released, but 52 were held until the end. The United States launched a rescue operation, Operation Eagle Claw, which failed and caused the deaths of eight servicemen. Historians consider the crisis to have been a primary reason for United States President Jimmy Carter's loss in his re-election bid for the presidency in 1980. The crisis also punctuated the first Islamic revolution of modern times.


@Deepak Gobi...

lost?..do you try to install new templates
and beta blogger edition?

Good post about astrology in India...



I agree with you about Madonna…only good performer….
not the best voice..
but her songs are cool..

I looked up and you have only 50,000 Muslims in Portugal

O Islão em Portugal

Ecumene said...

Quantas faces tem o Islão em Portugal?

Ecumene said...


Πρεπει να γραψεις κατι γι αυτα

Στην Ελλαδα δεν ακουσαμε τίποτα...

Take care

August-September 2006

* Iranian Bomb
* Bin Laden '9/11 video' broadcast
* Gunman fires on Jordan tourists
* Annan to see Lebanon destruction
* Annan to see Lebanon destruction
* Beirut fury at 'ceasefire breach'
* US echoes Iraq civil war warning
* The new Ovi magazine
* Israel 'presses US on bomb sale'
* Israel vows no let-up on Lebanon


Ecumene said...


Σημερα εχει
η Γιάννα
(ενθυμουμενη το αριστερο
παρελθον της)
στον Ελευθερο Τυπο
τον Ντουβάρι-Τοιχο του Îlmaz Gûney()

FreeCyprus said...

posted by "John C." on my site:


thanks for the link of the guy who converted away from Islam


"Muhammad condoned a man killing a pregnant mother and his own unborn child just because he said that she insulted the Prophet!"

"I could no longer accept the brutal treatment of those who chose not to accept Islam. Faith is a personal matter. I could no more accept that the punishment of someone who criticizes any religion must be death. "

"How could a messenger of God maim and crucify people on the account that they resist accepting him? Could such a person really be a messenger of God? Wasn’t there a better man with more moral and ethical fortitude to bear this mighty responsibility?

I could not accept the fact that Muhammad slaughtered 900 Jews in one day, after he captured them in a raid that he started. I read the following story and I shivered:

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair

Also, I found following story shocking:

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4396

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his foot.
So his (left) foot was cut off.
He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.)
He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.
He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him.
So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.

Seems that Muhammad passed judgment before hearing the case."

I would convert away from Islam too

5:24 PM

FreeCyprus said...

Violence during Ramadan:

The following list comes from Wikepedia. It is a compilation of wars/battles fought during Islam's most holy month:

* 624 - Battle of Badr. On 17 Ramadan, Muhammad led his forces in Arabia to victory over Makkan idolaters. "The great battle of Badr" or "Conquest of Mecca", was the first battle between believers and infidels.

* 627 - The Battle of the Ditch. Muslims trained for this battle during Ramadan, though it occurred in the following month of Shawal.

* 630 - Battle of Tabouk (also called the Battle of Tabuk). The soldiers of Islam, under the leadership of Muhammad, established a training and fighting camp in Tabouk during the month of fasting, and attacked the Byzantine army.

* 653 - Conquest of Rhodes. Muslims plundered the Colossus of Rhodes, melted it and turned it into arms for the soldiers.

* 710 - Muslims led by Tarek bin Ziyad, invaded Spanish southern frontier cities on the Andalusian coast defeating King Roderick. They stayed for eight hundred years, disseminating Islam. From there, Islam spreads out through Europe.

* 1099 - Battle of Ascalon. Took place on 22 Ramadan (August 12), the newfound crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem defeated Fatimid Egypt.

* 1187 - Battle of Hattin. Took place at dawn -- after the Night of Power (Lailat ul-Qadr); a night during the last ten days of Ramadan when tradition says that the angel Gabriel descended and God called Muhammad to be His messenger. (It is sometimes translated as the Night of Destiny.) Sultan Saladin (Salah Al-Din Al-Ayubi) wiped out the Frankish army and went on to reclaim Jerusalem for Islam. The battle took place on July 4.

* 1260 - Battle of Ain Jalut. Qutuz defeated the Mongols in Palestine.

* 1962 to 1970 - Yemeni Civil War. Fighting continued through nine Ramadans.

* 1973 - Ramadan War (Elsewhere known as the Yom Kippur War). Egypt and Syria launched their attack on Israel it was called Operation Badr, and foot soldiers were given religious slogans. The Yom Kippur War is also known as the 6th of October war of 1973 and the 10th of Ramadan War.

* 1975 to 1990 - Lebanon's civil war. Fighting took place over the course of seventeen Ramadans.

* 1981 - Iran rejected Iraqi offers for a Ramadan cease-fire.

* 1982 - Iran launched an attack on Iraq that they explicitly called "Operation Ramadan."

* 1986 - Christian forces called for a Ramadan cease-fire, which lasted two weeks.

* 1987 - Iran again rejected Iraqi offers for a Ramadan cease-fire.

* 1987 to 1993 - The first Palestinian Intifada was waged over six Ramadans.

* 1990s - There were at least 20 examples of Ramadan violence by Muslims during the Algerian civil war.

* 2000 - Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee stated that India would initiate a unilateral cease-fire in observance of the holy month of Ramadan as a step towards peace in Kashmir. Nonetheless, widespread fighting continued between Indian forces and the guerrillas in Jammu-Kashmir.

* 2000 - Al-Qaida operatives tried to bomb a U.S. destroyer, USS The Sullivans, in the harbor at Aden, Yemen. It was the Night of Power. The suicide boat was overloaded with explosives and sank.

* 2000 - Al-Qaida successfully bombs the USS Cole in the same harbor at Aden.

* 2003 - After the 2003 Iraq war, suicide bombers struck at four locations, including the Red Cross headquarters, killing at least 35 people.

Ecumene said...


"Overeager Misstrikes" on the War against Terror…….

An innocent was deported as a terrorist……..

Maher Arar (born 1970) is a Canadian software engineer born in Syria. On September 26, 2002, during a stopover in New York en route from Tunis to Montreal, Arar was detained by the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service who were acting upon false and misleading information supplied by the RCMP[1]. Despite carrying a Canadian passport, he was deported to Syria in accordance with a U.S. policy known as "extraordinary rendition". Arar was then held in solitary confinement in a Syrian prison where, according to a Commission of Inquiry headed by Justice Dennis O'Connor, he was regularly tortured until his eventual release and return to Canada in October 2003. The episode strained Canada-U.S. relations and resulted in the creation of a public inquiry in Canada "into the actions of Canadian officials dealing with the deportation and detention"[2] of Arar. The commission's final report cleared Arar's name and was sharply critical of the RCMP and other Canadian government departments.

Maher Arar’s case

Ecumene said...

O Mανώλης Ρασουλης επεστρεψε
παντρεψε την κορη,γιορτασε
τα γενεθλια(61)
και εκανε και post
για Μεσανατολικό

Ecumene said...

Al-Qaida has released a string of videos to coincide with the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks, showing increasingly sophisticated production techniques in a likely effort to demonstrate that it remains a powerful force despite the U.S.-led effort against the group.

Al-Zawahri criticized the U.N. resolution to send peacekeepers into Darfur Conflict, where at least 200,000 people have died and some 2 million have been displaced since the start of a 2003 revolt by rebels from the region's ethnic African population.

"There is a Crusader plan to send Crusader forces to Darfur that is about to become a new field of the Crusades war," he said.

Al-Zawahri compared Pope Benedict XVI to Pope Urban II, who in 1095 ordered the First Crusade to establish Christian control in the Holy Land.

The remarks about Benedict were an apparent response to the pontiff's comments this month that sparked outrage across the Muslim world. Benedict cited a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."

"If Benedict attacked us, we will respond to his insults with good things. We will call upon him and all of the Christians to become Muslims who do not recognize the Trinity or the crucifixion," al-Zawahri said.

Al Zawahri's speech

joshua said...

Linda, Ergotelina!



Unknown said...

Have you heard about Inquisition? Seems that apostasy or herecy was not that easy for Christians too!

About Algeria, better try this! (You should expect this from me ;-) )

"What happened in 1979?....

Oh yes, for sure, the same kind of revolution that happened in Greece 1967, or in Turkey in 1980!

ioannisk said...

Ας αρχίσω με τα σοβαρά θέματα...
ORIGINAL AEK ole ole Κλπ :)))

Ένα άρθρο που θα σε ενδιαφέρει: Chronique : Françaises, Français, blogueuses, blogueurs....
Ο επίλογος είναι όλα τα λεφτά.
"Pour les responsables politiques, participer à la "blogosphère" est une cure de jouvence et une épreuve de réhabilitation. Non, ils ne sont pas lointains, hautains, repliés sur leur monde, incapables de tenir compte de ce que pensent les simples citoyens. Et puis, le blog leur permet de réaliser leur rêve de toujours : communiquer avec les électeurs sans l'intermédiaire de ces éternels gêneurs que sont les journalistes."

Μερικά σχόλια:
Πριν από 2 μέρες ο Jospin ανακοίνωσε πως δεν θα είναι υποψήφιος στις προεδρικές που θα γίνουν του χρόνου. Κλείνοντας την ανακοίνωση του πέταξε μία (χοντρή) σπόντα ενάντια της Royal (του προηγούμενο Postάκι σου). Το άρθρο αναφέρει πως η Royal δεν έχει blog.

Οι μόνοι πολιτικοί που πήγαν στην συγκέντρωση(?) των Γάλλων Bloggers ήταν οι υποψήφιοι των Οικόλογων και τον Φιλελευθερων (ΣΑΤΑΝΑΣΣΣΣΣΣΣΣ), 2 κόμματα που στην χώρα που δηλώνουν ότι το Ιραν είναι χώρα της tolerance επειδή ένας τύπος που κλοτσάει μία μπάλα παίζει για την εθνική ομάδα είναι ανύπαρκτα. Προφανώς...

Ecumene said...




Τhe Inquisition
was abolished in

Sharia Law who imposes
death penalty to apostates
is still present

29 March, 2006
Islam humiliates religious freedom of Christians and human rights of Muslims. It’s time for change
by Samir Khalil Samir, sj

The ordeal of Abdul Rahman of Afghanistan is shared by many converts from Islam and poses the problem of Islam’s systematic violation of human rights. If Sharia kills a man who changes religion, it is to be condemned and cannot be the principle inspiring law, in that it destroys any ideal of coexistence and contradicts the UN declaration on human rights, approved in 1948 by almost all Muslim countries.

Rome (AsiaNews) – Abdul Rahman, the Afghan who converted from Islam to Christianity, was released from prison with a juridical ploy: deemed to be mentally unfit and thus incapable of undergoing trial, he was able to avoid the death penalty foreseen by sharia in the case of apostasy. But his ordeal is just one case in tens of thousands each year. In Egypt alone there are at least 10,000 Muslims who convert to Christianity each year. At the same time, there are at least 12,000 Christians who become Muslim.

Islam humiliates religious freedom of Christians and human rights of Muslims. It’s time for a change

Where was driven the Algerian revolution for independence by now?...

OK..not the same
Iranian theocratic revolution


AEK-Ergotelis 0-1
στο Ημίχρονο..αυτό εγραψε
η ιστορία................

Qu'attendez-vous ?

Segolene elle-même à bloger?

D'autres le font!


Au-dessus de cent(100)
blogs soutiennent Sego

Ecumene said...

Je propose ce blog avec des videos de Sego

Unknown said...

Since Islam is some 600 years younger than Christianity why do we expect Islam to abolish Sharia Law only 200 years after Christianity aboslished the Inquisition? ;-P

Apparently my comments on this post disorientated the readers. Of course I don't argue that radical Islam is not a reactive political power. I am arguing that Islam is not inherently intolerant and reactive as most of the western media try to persuade us - at least no more intolerant and reactive than Christianity is. Period.

P. E. Rodríguez/R.Coll said...

I´m really far away from all those religious affairs. But live in a country, venezuela, whith a fanatical goverment.

After some time listen it few and histerical ideas you can understand the obviuos: fanatism it`s always a boring and hopeless style of life.

Thanks for your visit to my blog, Ergo Te Lina.


Ecumene said...


So,we have to expect 400 years.........

OK..for 400 years Christians
only with their religious
(zealous)(proselytizing) word
tolerant to death like sheeps
suffered pogroms and mass
executions by the Romans....

(Later,when they got power
they oppressed the pagans)



For 400 years and more,what ways
were used by Islam to expand?


@(aka) Rodrigo Coll

Bienvenido! amigo
amante del arte y literatura

I hope,you don't have
such problems of religious
fanatism in Venezuela

I have only seen a TV-document
by a Greek reporter
about Hugo Chavez and

Ecumene said...

There are approximately 126,876 Muslims in Venezuela

The Al-Ibrihim mosque in Caracas is the biggest in Latin America.

Υοu have an extremely beautiful
mosque(mezquita) in your country!

Islam in Venezuela

Ecumene said...

Hugo Chavez is a strongly catholic
believer (fidel,catolico)

(He thinks he fights the Devil)

However,I think the relations with the venezuelan catholic church are not the best.....................

"The Muslim world is very sensitive. It is necessary to be prudent in what one says, especially when it comes to statements made by the pope, whose remarks have a great weight," Chavez urges pope to be more careful with his words

Today on many Arabic internet sites one can read comments such as: "I am Palestinian but my president is Chavez, not Abu Mazen." Or: "I don't want to be an Arab. From now on I shall be Venezuelan."

Winning Arab hearts and minds

Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

There is a popular saying in Arabic lands:
A camel sees only other camels' humps but not its own.

Centuries before the crusades there was Jihad.
The "holy war" against infidels was a conquest war with the sole purpose the forced islamization of people with different religions.
The ones that resisted were either massacred or enslaved for sale to the bazaars or forced to pay a capital tax each year as a gift to the merciful Sultan that spared their lives.
Later on and for every year parents would be forced to give up their first born boys to the representatives of the Sultan to be indoctrinated in becoming Muslim Janissaries.
Fanatic soldiers of Islam hated by the populace that are willing to slaughter and enslave their own people.

The Crusades were formed to fight those Sultans that had conquered, enslaved and forcible tried to convert to Islam the lands of Palestine and Jerusalem.

If there were no Jihad wars there wouldn't have been Crusades.

If there was not an attack on civilians on 9/11 there wouldn't have been such a war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Some might not be religious but a firebomb, a holy war fanatic doesn't make distinction between religious and atheists.

The West and particularly its leaders and the Western Media allowed the Muslim World and its media free reign into what is an immoral act and who needs to apologize for their actions.

There is not enough discussion done in the subject of the Muslim world's support to the acts of Bin Laden and his terrorists.

Pope Benedict as one of West's leaders and representatives exercised the right to ask the leaders of the Muslim world, both religious and civilian, to reflect into their passivity in speaking up against the terrorist acts and the "holy war" declared against Christianity.

There is an immediate need to isolate from the Muslim culture and religion the elements that emphasize the aspect of war and revenge vs. the aspect of love for humanity.

There are not just wars; there are just reasons for a war. The leaders and the people that have to lose most from a war should be the ones leading the peace efforts.
Saddam didn't understand that, he was a megalomaniac idiot.
Are all the same?
Some of them must be out there that want to protect themselves and their people from the just reactions of the West against terrorism.

These people were the true audience of the Pope.
I don't know if that was the message of the Pope, but History shows that Jihads cause Crusades.
None is the victor at the end but Death and Evil.

I wrote this as a comment in Ovi's post but I see you guys have done a good job.

Το σωστό να λέγεται said...

Vrennus, Ioannisk.
Ottomans tolerance to other religions.
My ass!

The Huns, Mongols and the Tatars were unique bloodthirsty tribes in History.
Attila, Genghis Khan, Tamerlan
Their ancestors, the Ottomans didn't develop any arts or science but the science of torture and butchering trying to convert Christians to Islam or just for fun.
The victims of this blight of Asia are millions and it left behind a Legend of Crime.

Ecumene said...

OK but

do not exaggerate

the ultra-orthodox,anti-unionists Byzantines,during the Paleologian period(1259-1453) had chosen
the Ottomans than the Catholics?

Attila, Genghis Khan, Tamerlan
The Huns, Mongols and the Tatars

were not muslims but animists,pagans

Their descendants,the Ottomans
maybe were not the best paradigm
according to a high-esteemed level of tecnonologic and cultural standards

Ottoman poetry

Culture of the Ottoman Empire

The Medieval Western Europe.......
The Eastern Roman Empire,of which
the Ottomans inherited many things
were better?

it 's a big discussion ..........................
Until the French Revolution
the world suffered by
Dark and Authoritarian Regimes

However the point of comparison
is not actually Christendom
and Islam but between religions which are tolerant to criticism and which are not........

Unknown said...

Άντε, Ergo te lina, κι έλεγα και 'γω τι τον είχε πιάσει τον πρόεδρο Μπους με τον πρόεδρο Τσάβεζ! Τώρα εξηγούνται όλα! Μα να έχει 120-κάτι χιλιάδες τρομοκράτες στη χώρα του ο Τσάβεζ και να μην κάνει τίποτε! ;-ΡΡΡ

Unknown said...

Το σωστό να λέγεται, αρκεί να μην υποπίπτει σε ιστορικά ολισθήματα...

ioannisk said...

Ergo καλημέρα
Χθες οι Γαλλικές ειδήσεις ήταν όλα τα λεφτά.
1ον ανακοίνωσε ο Fabius (μεγάλη γλίτσα) ότι θα είναι υποψήφιος για το χρίσμα των Σοσιαλιστών.
2ον μία φυλλάδα, ο Parisien ποιότητας Ελευθεροτυπίας μάλλον, δεν την έχω διαβάσει ποτέ, έβγαλε σαν είδηση (βρώμα) ότι στην υπόθεση του Rainbow Warrior*, αρχηγός της ομάδας που το βύθισε ήταν ο αδελφός της Royal. Εκείνη την περίοδο πρωθυπουργός της Γαλλίας ήταν ο Fabius.
3ον καλεσμένος του δελτίου ήταν ο Fabius.
4ον θα γελάσουμε πολύ με τις Γαλλικές εκλογές.

* Ήταν ένα καράβι της Greenpeace που το βύθισαν οι Γαλλικές μυστικές υπηρεσίες το 1985 στην Νέα Ζηλανδία επειδή θα έκανε έρευνες στην περιοχή που δοκίμαζαν τα πυρηνικά τους οι Γάλλοι.

I agree with your statement “I am arguing that Islam is not inherently intolerant and reactive” and I hope this is the case for most religions. On the other hand disagree with your argument “only 200 years after Christianity aboslished the Inquisition etc” and I do not see “as most of the western media try to persuade us”. At least I do not see it to the western media that I read.

@σωστό κλπ
Τι να σου πω, επιβεβαιώνεις το post. Πως τελικά οι θρησκείες κάνουν τους ανθρώπους Taliban. Μπορείς να μου πεις ποιος έκαψε την αρχαία Αθήνα και την βιβλιοθήκη της Αλεξάνδρειας; Είναι οι ίδιοι που έκλεισαν και την ακαδημία του Πλάτωνα και οι ίδιοι που έσφαξαν 100.000+ ανθρώπους όταν μάλωναν για τις λαδομπογιές (=εικόνες αν δεν το κατάλαβες). Οι απόγονοι τους προσκυνάνε τον Φασιστόδουλο, ναι εκείνο τον τηλέ-αστέρα που κάνει réveillon στο st-George. Πάντως ακόμα να μου κουλαθεί το χέρι…
Όσον αφορά την προσφορά του Βυζαντίου στην ανθρωπότητα οκ καλές οι εικόνες και η βυζαντινή μουσική αλλά για μία αυτοκρατορία που έζησε 500 - 600 χρόνια δεν είναι τίποτα.

Lirun said...

interesting.. thank you for your insite..

Anonymous said...


The winds prevail upon the breath of Christ
The galleons conquer to the foeman shore.

To far Otranto stormed Ahmed Pasa
Perhaps as far as Rome the horsetails roar.
Cry; "God is One!": the prayer call must reach
Yon famous church where infideis adore.

From Roman Pope to Christ himself the light
Of Islam flood the infidel at war.

Let Kemal be an offering for your soul
To topmost heaven let this gazel soar.

Translated by Bernard Lewis

Yahya Kemal

Anonymous said...

hi, i am a turk and i am from isparta (turkey), i want to contact anatolian greeks who they emigrated from isparta (turkey ), i want to find this people for our cultural and historical relations please help me... my email- serdaripek@gmail.com

Ecumene said...

Hoş geldin kardeş!

Most of "Spartalídhes"
"Yunan Ispartalılar"
are now in Athens(Nea Ionia,suburb)
you can contact at


Here is the site(unfortunatelly only
in Greek)

Τhe site starts with a melody
of a greek anatolian song
which I think it has also
a turkish version..


Ecumene said...

I was wrong.It 's a turkish song :-)

sung by a greek singer in the link

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